I was really pleased to join Jenny Misslin and Phillip Dieke on their podcast Radical Sacred for Episode 18 of Season 3 . We had a genuinely fun and thoughtful conversation about prayer and my book Abiding in Amen: Prayer in a Secular Age . We wandered (in the best way) through why prayer can be so hard, what we even mean when we say “secular,” birdwatching, The Big Lebowski , and how prayer and activism belong in the same conversation. It was one of those dialogues that felt spacious, curious, and alive. I hope you’ll give it a listen: 🎧 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/episode/7dlA2xuPu2snTEEnygEvfW?si=f5MgkQhoTEOwwZGhQOi_8Q 🎧 Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/wes-ellis-and-abiding-in-amen/id1722132249?i=1000747978974 🎧 Pocket Casts: https://pca.st/xcefglzm —and probably anywhere else you get your podcasts. Grateful for Jenny and Phillip and the good work they’re doing with Radical Sacred . Give it a listen and let me know what resonates.